topic Re: Panasonic problems in TVs

Panasonic problems

Elcycad — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:29:16 GMT

Has any one read ...(on cnet)

Panasonic admits plasma TV black level change but says picture quality still 'excellent'

I need a new plasma TV, but am concerned about panasonic having problems re: black levels. Have any of you with new panasonic plasma's noticed a change over time?

Re: Panasonic problems

cxz — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:41:55 GMT

Elcycad wrote:

Has any one read ...(on cnet)

Panasonic admits plasma TV black level change but says picture quality still 'excellent'

I need a new plasma TV, but am concerned about Panasonic having problems re: black levels. Have any of you with new Panasonic plasma's noticed a change over time?

There is a large thread on avs with evidence documenting this, and its effects on the 11/12G models. Google "Panasonic black level double" for it. Here is an image by user Orta regarding the G10's black level

G10 Contrast Ratio @ ~200 hours: 4906:1--Black level 0.008fL

G10 Contrast Ratio @ ~400 hours: 2348:1--Black Level 0.018fL

I don't think most people would notice it unless measuring black levels or comparing side by side with another Panasonic. Regardless, one of the biggest advantages of a plasma is the black level and if Panasonic can't fix it going forward they are going to quickly loose a large portion of their customers who happen to be the same enthusiasts complaining now.

Re: Panasonic problems

BB_Doc — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 05:48:08 GMT

as i was reading the same AVS thread a week back it seems Panasonic has emailed affected few owners that they are working on the software update that supposedly will fix the Black levels doubling effect on Panny Plasmas

Re: Panasonic problems

Elcycad — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:36:58 GMT

Panasonic does not plan fix for reported black level increases...as per the new Cnet report.

I will stay away from Panasonic

Re: Panasonic problems

Willow — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:04:14 GMT

Your loss then!

Re: Panasonic problems

Elcycad — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:26:32 GMT

Somehow I don't think so. I think it's Panasonic's loss...& I'm not referring to their loss of black levels only!

Re: Panasonic problems

Willow — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:28:28 GMT

First off, does the article refer to all Panny plasma? NO and who right now makes one of the best Plasma? Panny does. My panny plasma has been fantastic for 2 years now. No I'm not a panny fanboy either. I just think that it is your loss not wanting to give them a chance, Panny has and will continue to have many satisfied customers.

Re: Panasonic problems

cxz — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:29:51 GMT

Willow wrote:

First off, does the article refer to all Panny plasma? NO and who right now makes one of the best Plasma? Panny does. My panny plasma has been fantastic for 2 years now. No I'm not a panny fanboy either. I just think that it is your loss not wanting to give them a chance, Panny has and will continue to have many satisfied customers.

it has been confirmed to be all 11/12 generation models.

Re: Panasonic problems

BB_Doc — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 04:00:05 GMT

"Since the TVs work as designed, there's nothing to fix."

That answer comes from Bob Perry, Senior VP of Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company, in reply to a follow-up question CNET asked in response to the company's February 3 statement addressing reports about the company's plasma TVs losing their deep black levels over time.

I dont believe this ...its like Toyota Saying we wont fix ur Brake problems....

Re: Panasonic problems

Snapshot — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 04:25:42 GMT

I have the 46PZ80 and haven't noticed any black level decreases.

Re: Panasonic problems

BB_Doc — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 04:58:00 GMT

How many runtime hours u got on ur Z series?

Re: Panasonic problems

dobyblue — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:33:10 GMT

Really? I could have sworn it has been confirmed to be a problem on about 30~40 individual sets on the market...a far cry from "all 11G/12G" sets.

Re: Panasonic problems

Snapshot — Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:11:17 GMT

Runtime hours on my Z series? I've had it for about a year and a half, I watch and game on it a lot. The only thing I'm starting to notice is on the bottom right corner when I turn the TV on, I see these lit up green or blue pixels on a 8x4 inch area. It flickers for a bit then goes away within a minute. Only happens when I turn it on. Has anyone else's plasma done his?

Re: Panasonic problems

cxz — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:24:37 GMT

dobyblue wrote:

Really? I could have sworn it has been confirmed to be a problem on about 30~40 individual sets on the market...a far cry from "all 11G/12G" sets.

i hope you didnt take my statement literally, i was just quoting what d-nice (if you read avsforum then you probably know who he is) said. Of course it cannot be verified on everyones set since not everyone posses the data of what their output was initially, let alone the equipment to measure it. Additionally, a very small number of people have reported and verified that there sets are not experiencing fluctuating black levels or to an extent, if im not mistaken, have managed to correct the issue. Perhaps i maybe be oblivious to new info or some other tidbit buried in the thread (judging by your post) as i havent read past the first post as the issue does not really concern me as i dont own a panasonic.

[quote]

"What model lines are affected?"

There are measured reports for the X1, G10/15, and V10 linked to in the Thread Updates section above. The PX/PZ lines from 2008 also seem to be affected (see intro paragraph). D-Nice's Panasonic contacts suggested all consumer class 2008 and 2009 model lines are affected.

"Why might some suspect their units are NOT affected?

Obviously I can't say with any degree of certainty that every single unit is affected, but I can provide some reasons why it might not be noticeable to everyone. First you have to consider the environment. All these models have relatively poor anti-reflective/light-blocking filters, so any ambient light that hits the screen makes this issue very very difficult to notice. Obviously this describes pretty much everyone, very few people view displays in a totally blacked out room. Taking this one step further, to have a truly accurate recollection and perception of the MLL's, you would have to almost view the panel exclusively in this blacked out room as any washed out daytime or lit use could potentially bias ones impression. Lastly, you have to consider people's performance expectations. Post-elevation, these panels produce MLL's and CR's largely on par with mid-range CCFL LCD's from 2008 (e.g. Samsung A550/650/750/Etc). Most users and reviewers described these makes as having "Strong, Deep Blacks" and "High Contrast Ratio's", so it's understandable why some might not identify this as an issue."

[/quote]

Not really an issue for the average consumer, but for the enthusiast/internet/videophile crowd and or owner/buyer this is probably an issue. Not to mention that Katzmaier (cnet editor) went as far as to yank his editors choice from the V, if i remember correctly, because of this, as well as pointing out that he will no longer recommend panasonic to his family and friends who currently own panasonics.

Re: Panasonic problems

boyd — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:22:04 GMT

anyone heard anything new on this. i'm ready to pull the trigger on a 58 plasma this month but the two tops both have issues. i might endup going to a 60 lg. any news on the black levels?

Re: Panasonic problems

cxz — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 18:14:34 GMT

doesnt look like there have been any updates to the issue yet, according to the avs thread on rising panasonic black levels.

Re: Panasonic problems

spike4881 — Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:33:16 GMT

The avs forum is absolutely notorious for intolerance to anything but absolute perfection. "If it ain't Pioneer, it's garbage" seems to be a common theme there, and let's face it; if you're satisfied with your tv's performance, you will not post about it there.

Having said that, Panasonic has gone on record as saying the voltage will adjust itself dependant on viewing hours, which may translate to lessening of black levels in the long run. The question is how much? If it can be measured with a spyder, but will not suffer in a viewing environment, who cares?

Before purchasing my G series Panny, I was looking for an LCD/LED tv and almost bought one. When shopping around I asked every sales rep what type of tv they owned, and without fail every single one stated they owned a plasma as a main set, with the majority owning Panasonic.

Re: Panasonic problems

BillyBob99 — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:23:47 GMT

You don't need a meter to detect the MLL increase. If you turn off the lights and watch a movie like Dark Knight it will be obvious (even my wife who is not a tech geek noticed the difference). When I first got the TV my black bars were pretty dark...they did not match the black boarder but they were still pretty good. Now I have to zoom content to fill the screen because the bars are now grey and are very distracting (adjusting brightness from 0-100 or anywhere in between makes no difference to this). My measured contrast after the first 200hrs was 4000:1 (actual contrast not the dynamic BS) and has dropped to 1800:1 in the first 1000hrs on my V10. This gives a noticeable washed out look to dark scenes and makes the image very flat. I also have a PZ80 & a PX80 from last year and they both currently have a better black level than my V10 but they also have low hrs and are susposed to also be affected by this so they may suck too after some more use. Initially image retention was almost non existent even after 4-5 hrs of straight gaming but now I get IR in mere seconds. If I paid $1500 for this set instead of $3500 I wouldn't care but my buddy picked up a Samsung LN40B540 LCD for $800 that has black levels as good as what I'm currently seeing on my V10. If you can get a S1 for cheap fine but don't spend big bucks on the 2009 Panasonic plasma. Also the 58's and 65's start at a lower MLL so if they double or triple it's not as noticeable as the smaller Panasonic plasmas that start out at a higher MLL. BTW Panasonic has no intention of fixing this issue and is sweeping it under the rug like Toyota tried to so unless these TV's start blowing up and killing people Panasonic will never fix it unless their sales take a dive.

spike4881 wrote:
The avs forum is absolutely notorious for intolerance to anything but absolute perfection. "If it ain't Pioneer, it's garbage" seems to be a common theme there, and let's face it; if you're satisfied with your tv's performance, you will not post about it there.

Sorry buddy but you're wrong! A lot of us were posting calibration settings and calibration reports helping people get the best out of their TV's before any of this happened (I bet some of you are even using my settings) We wen't there complaining we were very happy about our TV's PQ until this started happening. There were many people like you saying we were too picky until the same BS happened to them at which point they either started singing the same tune or they shutup out of embarassment.

spike4881 wrote:
Having said that, Panasonic has gone on record as saying the voltage will adjust itself dependant on viewing hours, which may translate to lessening of black levels in the long run. The question is how much? If it can be measured with a spyder, but will not suffer in a viewing environment, who cares?

I have not seen a single calibration report on a 2009 Panasonic plasma that does not have an increased MLL reading so it's not "may translate to lessening of black levels" it's will translate to lessening of black levels.

It will not suffer in a bright viewing enviroment because Panasonic's AR filter is very poor in direct light but in a dark room it will suck so it will suffer in a viewing enviroment.

Re: Panasonic problems

boyd — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:47:31 GMT

BillyBob99 wrote:

You don't need a meter to detect the MLL increase. If you turn off the lights and watch a movie like Dark Knight it will be obvious (even my wife who is not a tech geek noticed the difference). When I first got the TV my black bars were pretty dark...they did not match the black boarder but they were still pretty good. Now I have to zoom content to fill the screen because the bars are now grey and are very distracting (adjusting brightness from 0-100 or anywhere in between makes no difference to this). My measured contrast after the first 200hrs was 4000:1 (actual contrast not the dynamic BS) and has dropped to 1800:1 in the first 1000hrs on my V10. This gives a noticeable washed out look to dark scenes and makes the image very flat. I also have a PZ80 & a PX80 from last year and they both currently have a better black level than my V10 but they also have low hrs and are susposed to also be affected by this so they may suck too after some more use. Initially image retention was almost non existent even after 4-5 hrs of straight gaming but now I get IR in mere seconds. If I paid $1500 for this set instead of $3500 I wouldn't care but my buddy picked up a Samsung LN40B540 LCD for $800 that has black levels as good as what I'm currently seeing on my V10. If you can get a S1 for cheap fine but don't spend big bucks on the 2009 Panasonic plasma. Also the 58's and 65's start at a lower MLL so if they double or triple it's not as noticeable as the smaller Panasonic plasmas that start out at a higher MLL. BTW Panasonic has no intention of fixing this issue and is sweeping it under the rug like Toyota tried to so unless these TV's start blowing up and killing people Panasonic will never fix it unless their sales take a dive.

spike4881 wrote:

The avs forum is absolutely notorious for intolerance to anything but absolute perfection. "If it ain't Pioneer, it's garbage" seems to be a common theme there, and let's face it; if you're satisfied with your tv's performance, you will not post about it there.

Sorry buddy but you're wrong! A lot of us were posting calibration settings and calibration reports helping people get the best out of their TV's before any of this happened (I bet some of you are even using my settings) We wen't there complaining we were very happy about our TV's PQ until this started happening. There were many people like you saying we were too picky until the same BS happened to them at which point they either started singing the same tune or they shutup out of embarassment.

spike4881 wrote:

Having said that, Panasonic has gone on record as saying the voltage will adjust itself dependant on viewing hours, which may translate to lessening of black levels in the long run. The question is how much? If it can be measured with a spyder, but will not suffer in a viewing environment, who cares?

I have not seen a single calibration report on a 2009 Panasonic plasma that does not have an increased MLL reading so it's not "may translate to lessening of black levels" it's will translate to lessening of black levels.

It will not suffer in a bright viewing enviroment because Panasonic's AR filter is very poor in direct light but in a dark room it will suck so it will suffer in a viewing enviroment.

Thanks for the info. i for one can't bring myself to buy something that is defective and panasonic has no interest in fixing. i think it would be a great TV but can't understand where panasonic is coming from. and the 58 sammys have that **bleep** buzzing noise. i might have to go with LG.

Re: Panasonic problems

Kayne314 — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:21:46 GMT

I have the Panasonic TH42PZ800u. I bought it in late 2007... I think.(I'm not going looking for the receipt right now.)

I have literally thousands of hours of use logged on this TV. It is the center of my home entertainment and used at least 4 to 8 hours a day for at least 2 years.( say 4000 to 6000 hours.) I have not spent the $300 to have it professionally calibrabrated, but I did run the home calibration blu-rays put out by HQV and DVE.

I've made a habbit of running the calibration disks a couple of times a year, and have only had to make one adjustment since purchasing the TV. I had to lower the brightness 1 notch. I believe it went from +16 to +15.(not near the TV for exactly where it is currently set.) I feel this is very good, if not excellent, for the level of use my TV receives. I admit I am not putting a scope on the TV to measure the contrast or brightness, but I cannot report any significant loss of black levels that my eye can detect. My blacks are just as inky as they should be, without losing corresponding detail.

If my TV is indeed losing black level, it will need to be a lot more dramatic a change to be clear enough to make any difference to my viewing. Any of my friends who also have HD TVs still prefer watching movies or sports at my place, because the picture is so good. I regularily get the envious comment, "Why doesn't my TV look like that?"

It could be I don't own one of the affected models. But if you want a real world example of what your panasonic will look like after 2 years of use, I can say I am very happy with what I have. My next TV will definately be another Panasonic.